Hi Les, Yes, my attempt to find something that I believed, that maybe everyone might believe, was perhaps kind of a harebrained idea. The current state is basically that all the theists believe in evolution, but the atheists don't? ;) I suspect this is probably just because, unlike the active atheist camp, no one in the theist camp had enough interest in objecting to the change I made before it went live? So it's great to have someone interested enough to help out the situation, so we can get things right, and better survey what everyone believes. Should we undo my change, and move the entire "God does not exist" camp back to having its parent be the root agreement statement? Would anyone in that camp be unhappy with restoring that original state? It's been quite some time since anyone has tried to propose a good structure for this topic, that best captures what everyone believes is most important, in an easy for everyone to understand kind of way. Isn't there anything at all we can all agree on? Les, if you, or anyone else have a proposal of how this topic might be better organized for everyone, please speak up? Or, Les, if nobody objects for a few days, or has any better proposals, you or I could change the parent of the 'God does exist' camp back to being the original root agreement statement. Thanks Brent

Sadly, I can not agree to support the Christian camps under the Mother Nature heading. Quite frankly, the camp statement, which as is follows: "We recognize the God like attributes of Mother Nature or all that we can all agree that we know. Humanity is a big part of that nature, and if it wasn't caring, nurturing, loving and motherly, none of us would be here. We recognize and have faith in any progress she has made. We thank all of our ancestors for living, being our natural creators, and for giving us everything we have inherited. As a part of mother nature, we will eternally hope and strive for much more of this to come." is quite contrary to true Christian faith. True Christian faith asserts that God is the origin of nature, and that nature is currently in a fallen, corrupted state as a result of mankind's sin. It does not function as intended, and furthermore, cannot be viewed as nurturing, loving, or motherly in its current condition. The idea that true Christianity could fall under the category of being a part of Mother Nature is quite ludicrous, actually.

Folks, There is some discussion going on around the new changes I recently proposed in the new mother nature camp [http://canonizer.com/forum.asp/2/20 here]. The system doesn't send e-mail to supporting camps, till the parent camp changes go live, so nobody is currently getting these e-mails since none of the parent changes have gone live yet. I should probably fix this - maybe tonight. So, consider this just an FYI, and if you are interested at all in the recent changes being proposed, by moving everyone into a supporting position under the new [http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/2/20 Mother Nature] camp, please see the above. Thanks Brent Allsop

Hi Dayzen, Very interesting. What is meant by "it is internally aware" and "God never forgets"? All of this might be a bit to technical for everyone to agree on? I think it would be great to get this integrated into the Pantheism statement. As far as a camp that everyone would agree with what about a topic name like: '''Mother Nature''' And a statement something like: "We recognize the God like attributes of Mother Nature or all that we can all agree that we know. Humanity is a big part of that nature, and if it wasn't caring, nurturing, loving and motherly, none of us would be here. We recognize and have faith in any progress she has made. We thank all of our ancestors for living, being our natural creators, and for giving us everything we have inherited. As a part of mother nature, we will eternally hope and strive for much more of this to come." "Most religions include to various extents explicit beliefs about the importance of nature that we all believe in. Examples of such of course includes [http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/2/23 Pantheism], [http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/2/19 We are all God], the concept of Gaia, [http://www.uua.org/ Universal Unitarian], [http://humanityplus.org/ Transhumanism] and so on." Would anyone object to having their camp moved into a sporting position with such a camp? Brent Allsop

Whitehead's Process God in a nutshell: from GodBeyondOrthodoxy-r3.pdf • The ultimate units of reality are momentary units of becoming called "actual occasions." • Each actual occasion has a Passive and an active side. • In its passive mode it apprehends or "prehends" the actual occasions that came before it. Because it is internally aware of all of them, we have here a form of internal relatedness. • But each occasion also has an active or a creative moment. It synthesizes all this input into a unique response. In doing so, it becomes a unique entity, a unique response to the world. • At the end of this process, it ceases becoming and becomes available for other, new occasions to apprehend (or Prehend) its unique contribution. • God is composed of these actual occasions. Unlike the rest of us, however, God never forgets and God never Passes out of existence. At every moment of your becoming, God prehends your valuations and your most intimate responses. • And God becomes different as a result. At the next moment of your becoming, God offers back to you those valuations, and the experiences of all other living things, but now valued and interpreted from the divine perspective. • The becoming God becomes a part of the becoming you. Then, in the next moment, you contribute your response to this becoming back, in an unending process of divine-human (and divine-nonhuman dialogue).

Everyone, It's fun to see the support of this topic grow and I'd like to welcome the newest supporters. I'm especially excited to see the growth of the nature is God, [http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/2/19 We are God], [http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/2/23 Pantheistic] camps. I consider one of the goals of canonizer.com to be finding out what people agree on. This is the information that can migrate to the highest level camps, if not all the way to the agreement statement for a topic. I consider a great example of success in this area to be the [http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/69 Sex Education topic]. You need to set the new filter on the side bar to 0 to see the camp created by [http://www.stopp.org/director.htm James Sedlak - The famed Director of STOPP]. Since we haven't found anyone willing to directly support this camp yet. Initially everyone thinks there is no way some of the people in these camps would agree on much of anything. But, as you can see, everyone does agree on critical importance of education. The only disagreement is that one camp thinks it should be private, and the other thinks it can be public - to me this is a far less important issue than the importance of education. So we successfully created a single top level unanimous camp that points out the critical universally accepted importance of sex education. (This is the topic I always like to show to politicians since it clearly reveals where government and the law can work - instead of everyone always focusing only on where we disagree.) When I created the first canonizer camp on God, I also thought there wouldn't be much that anyone would agree on - but, shocking surprise, it appears there might be much we agree on after all. I would like to see if we can create a similar, universally accepted pantheistic like camp that might win unanimous support by everyone. I'd like to know if we embarked on creating such a universal camp and started moving all the other camps into a supporting camp position, would any current supporters object to such an endeavor, and if so - why. I think the current pantheistic camp is close, but it has a bit too much explicit talk about God talking to people, and such. I think all atheists would agree with a statement defining God to be nature, or all of us, or all that we know, as long as such could clearly not explicitly include some sentient being that can talk to some of us but is mostly hiding from the rest. I'm trying to think of a name, and the general outline of a statement for such a camp that everyone could agree with. I'd love to know what all of your thoughts and desires are along these lines, and especially would love to hear any proposals for such. Upward, Brent Allsop